Curse

SpeedyKQ · Nov 07, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Most pug players are nice people, of widely varying skill levels. I'm amazed by how much the people on this forum let the occasional pug jackass get to them and would rather live in a bubble. I enjoy the unpredictability and the interaction. Sometimes you get an amazing group and rock the mission, sometimes you get a weaker group and have to carry them a bit, and sometimes you get a terrible group and have to find another one. But for me, not knowing beforehand is kinda fun.

With at least one of my characters I'm going to play though the game old-school, henching the quests and pugging the missions, only bringing heroes where required. Looking forward to it.

Sure heroes are more effective than most pugs, but pretty much all of my meaningful GW memories (most good, some bad) come from playing with others. I really don't want to throw that away.

Lenixo · Nov 07, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Just release the next chapter as a single player offline game and be done with it. Why even call it a multiplayer game anymore, since people seem to not play it that way for large sections of it as it currently is. Hey, no more err=007s right?

thats THE true thing about nightfall and the way the game is developing. its sad.
my friends started playing WoW again because you actually play with people there and see people playing even if the gameplay is activity therapy for retards.

crimsonfilms · Nov 07, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

The Heroes system is a double edge sword.

ANet probably implemented it to fix certain issues---

1. The migrating population from chapter to chapter.
2. The request for a 'smarter' NPC Hench system.

The downside is

1. Smarter Hench request basically means 'I don't have the patience or desire for PUGing' - thus the reduction of cooperative PvEing in GW.

2. The amount of customization has an added burden to the economy. I used burden because Heroes don't have their own storage and drops. Players must provide that. Yet, they are part of the 'demand' aspect of the economy.

Solution for problem 1 is to have missions that needs coordination. Like accomplishing 2 different tasks at one given time. For example, in GvG, Heroes does not work because you have to go on the offensive, maintain flag control and defend the guild hall - among other little tasks like fixing the cata/treb.

With heroes, you would not need 7 other players. 2-4 might be good enough. At least you satisfy the population and cooperative problems at the same time.

Solution for 2 is to change the drop system. Either increase it or have Heroes have some kind of drop.

.02

Velvet Wing · Nov 07, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I really love to do a mission with a nice PUG.. Even though I sometimes had people ragequit, noobs that agro big groups when we are just taking a moment to regen, error 7's (not their fault but still annoying), 1337 haxxorz.. trust me, been around long and seen it all.. but still I do get more satisfaction while finishing a tough mission..

**TINY SPOILER ALERT**
The most recent example was me taking down Shiro at the end of nightfall.. I had to try 4 times untill I got my build right and killed him fast after that.. Then I played trough the mission again because a guildie needed some help, we decided to go PUG instead of heroes, cause the heroes my guildie could provide were not good enough

.. After a while (about 20 minutes..which is not that long to be honoust) we got a reasonable party --> 2 wammo, 1 dervish, 1 para, 2 monks, 1 elem, 1 necro and we decided to do the mission..
After a long mission (took us almost an hour and a half) we finally kicked shiro behind and got to the last area of NF.. Even though I already finished the mission before, this time around it seemed more satisfying.. People congratulating each other, telling them we were proud of eachother, adding people to friends list, even inviting a new guildie.. I guess PUG's are worth it, at least in my humble opinion

**END OF SPOILER**

MasterThrawn · Nov 07, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

You know I've only been playing Nightfall over the weekend, but I find myself just doing the quests or missions and not even bother to interact with anyone at all. I wasn't doing this purposely, but what's the point. Especially near the beginning where you can only have 4 people in your party. I loe Heroes, and the fact that I won't have to wait for groups to find Monks anymore, but I don't know. Playing through the first two chapters (mostly the first) just seemed so much more - fun. I guess I kind of miss going through some of those (often funny) missions with PUG's. That's where I met my guildies after all...

Kyosuke · Nov 07, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Maybe I've been lucky. I'm in the Realm of Torment and for the past 5 or 6 missions ihave done PUGS. I don't like just using heroes.. Granted, I don't do anything extra for mins, add skills, etc... so when it comes down to fighting all lvl 28 stuff it's a pain, but I like playing iwht people... Did the Varesh mission wiht people, made it easier.. All missions i Do with peopel I get through on the first try.. wth Henchies, takes a few times.. People are still smarter and the way to go.. If you want to play a singleplayer game go play on your SNES that's collecting dust.

Jetdoc · Nov 07, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Just release the next chapter as a single player offline game and be done with it. Why even call it a multiplayer game anymore, since people seem to not play it that way for large sections of it as it currently is.

Very well put. The attitudes in this thread are EXACTLY what I was worried about when I heard of the institution of heroes.

Is Guild Wars becoming a multiplayer game only for the PvP aspect?

I believe that A-Net realized the ever thinning population could cause problems for people playing the game. Heroes were that patch to fix that problem.

However, they are only increasing the problem - because people are now using their heroes instead of teaming up with other players, it will likely become VERY difficult to find other people that want to form a max group to complete a quest with you, let alone a mission.

I really see the PvE aspect of Guild Wars becoming more along the lines of a glorified Baldur's Gate. Choose your NPC party of your choice, group with them, and then go overpower the game. You are already seeing people complain that heroes and henchmen aren't "good" enough to beat (or explore) some of the hardest parts of the game. That's not a good sign.

Lord Zado · Nov 07, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I suscribe to the theory that Guidmates/Friends > Heroes > Henchies > PUGS for the most part, but you all have to honestly ask yourself "How did you meet your friends or find your guild in the first place?". The answer to that for most of us is probably from PUG's! So while yes I have the sincerest dislike for bad PUG's, I sometimes go back to it just because you never know who you might meet.

Also, when a new game is first released, I notice the PUG's tend to be a lot better. Back when Factions was released, my old alliance was a bit slow in advancing ahead, so I got my first character through with the help of 2 good friends and PUG's. I must say, all of the PUG's I was in were pretty darn good. There was none of that "gogogogo" attitude you get from people that have played through the game 2 - 10 times. When everything is fresh, no one really acts like a know-it-all or rushes ahead. Those that act that way are usually stuck on the same early missions over and over again, so towards the end, there's nothing but good players.

Sadly, I'm missing this nice pugging period because I am so enthralled with the new heroes (and because of dial up lag issues on release *groan*) and I'm guessing a lot of other people are too. Seems that most people that are PUG'ing are those that don't have the skill to beat it with heroes/henchies and that usually is bottom of the barrel. So naturally your average PUG in this situation is not going to be that great. But at the end of the day PUG's are the great wild card. Some of my best memories in GW are barely squeaking by a mission with a PUG, finishing after several ragequits, etc. I've even had PUG's run missions smoother than I have done with guildmates! Just have to be willing to wade through the bad to get to the good I guess.

Jetdoc · Nov 07, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterThrawn

Playing through the first two chapters (mostly the first) just seemed so much more - fun. I guess I kind of miss going through some of those (often funny) missions with PUG's. That's where I met my guildies after all...

Exactly. Which are you likely to remember:

1. Completing a mission with your heroes and henchmen?

2. Completing a mission with a decent PuG, while chatting/making fun of other party members?

My best experiences in the game have been with PuGs, especially those that were "challenged". Sometimes your strength as a player comes out to make up for other players' deficiencies - those are the challenges that Guild Wars strives for you face.

Yes, you'll get frustrated with some PuG's incompetencies. But that should be part of any Multiplayer game, shouldn't it?

Prospero · Nov 07, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Ok, here is the issue as I see it. If Heroes are accepted by the majority of players, then why should it be different? If Heroes are rejected, then people will PUG and you don't have this issue. ANet has not forced a policy upon us by giving us Heroes. They have addressed the issue that people think hench are inadaquate and should be better. These are the same people who don't want to PUG. You're telling me that you want people who don't want to play with others in your group? People who enjoy grouping with others can still do it. Those who don't will continue to play. As I see it, those who would have quit long ago b/c of forced groups, now can continue to play. I wasn't active in a Guild until I was at Ring of Fire and had I not had henchmen, I'd have quit GW LONG ago.

I just don't understand the argument about ANet trying to move this game into a more Single-Player mode....It's the how the PLAYERS play that decides what type of game this is, not ANet's added options.

My best experiences have been when playing with others, but so have my worst. I guess your preference is derived from your tolerance to others and how often the good/bad groups have happened to you.

Jetdoc · Nov 07, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prospero

I just don't understnad the argument about ANet trying to move this game into a more Single-Player mode....It's the how the PLAYERS play that decides what type of game this is, not ANet's added options.

Yes, but more people playing in Single Player mode = less people to PuG with.

When you have less people to PuG with, especially in an ever expanding game, it may get to the point where people that want to play in a PuG cannot, because of a shortage of available players.

So yes, additional options can negatively impact how others play the game.

GranDeWun · Nov 07, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Heros are great for those of us who have unlocked tons of skills, and are familiar with various builds and what roles they play. But I pity a new player just starting out in Nightfall, for whom the heros are just expensive henchies, and who can't even find a group anymore...and the number of PUG's is definitely reduced as far as I can tell. Many Torment outposts have no chat at all!

Prospero · Nov 07, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

You have a valid point, but if MOST people avoid PUGs, then that may lead to fewer people to PUG with. BUT, my point is this, the types of people that hate PuGing aren't going to play period. Besides, as much as I hate to say it, majority rules in this case. I'm not saying it's fair, but it is what it is. I honestly think that in the long-run Heroes are going to have a positive effect on player longevity. People are the best and worst part of GW, I like having a choice.

You still have a choice. In fact, PuGs are now IMPROVED because you are working with players who WANT to PuG, not those who feel forced. If you aren't happy with it then I guess the next step is to ask ANet to provide a better grouping system. I'd be behind you on that move all the way.

Petrus · Nov 07, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

well... i tried 4 times to do second to last mission in nf with pugs.. failed each time... first try with a descent hero/hench build (my own).. sadly to say, but heroes plays better than (most) pugs.. ofcourse guild/alliance plays better than heroes..

garethporlest18 · Nov 07, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

I like having the option of Heroes or Henchies or PUGs. I don't play by myself I'm always playing with a guildie, except when I beat the game. Honestly I don't mind playing with people in missions or hard elite mission type places (FoW/UW), but I rather not when I'm just going out to kill things which is what I like to do as well, or for quests. Which is where I usually play with my friends or guildy.

I do like going into town though and talking to people that are there and seeing that other people are around. It's the first week folks, give it time, once people start getting farther, start getting more used to and more content starts to come..more PUGs will pop up. I'd be upset if they make this a single player game offline. I like playing online and interacting with people, but it doesnt' have to be ALL the time. It's fine how it is now, just wait.

Myria · Nov 07, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prospero

I just don't understand the argument about ANet trying to move this game into a more Single-Player mode....It's the how the PLAYERS play that decides what type of game this is, not ANet's added options.

Anet could have created a long-overdue grouping system so people weren't ludicrously reduced to standing in a single discrete instance typing "LFG!" over and over.

Anet could have made teaming with other humans beneficial somehow.

Anet could have made teaming with other humans required, or nearly so, for some quests or missions.

Anet could have done lots of things that would have encouraged interaction with others, but they didn't. Instead they introduced heroes, super-henchies that make it even easier than it already was to dual- or solo-play the game.

The players use the tools they're given, clearly Anet feels that giving people tools to make it easier to hench is more important than giving them tools that make it easier to group. Given that, I'm not sure how you can argue that they aren't trying to move GW to a single- or dual-player game.

brokenmonkey · Nov 07, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

The plural for Heroes is Heroes, not Hero's...

Well said, lol.

PanGammon · Nov 07, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Lets be honest. Heros have kind of attacked the game. They can be used in TA, AB, HA and can outdo almost any PUG 99% of times. This isnt a bad thing but it kinda defeats the purpose of an MMORPG. Thats why I rather go with my guild or friends and throw in some heroes or henches. On the other hand heroes rock, If only they didnt hax so much cash.........

Oh a GW forum · Nov 07, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Heroes>PUG's

I beat Nightfall entirely without once using anything but Heroes and Hench. With a ranger. There is absolutely no need to ever suffer a PUG again.

Same. I'm about to try THK with heros/hench. I think I'll beat it first try.

Amorfati87 · Nov 07, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Where were all you people that like to PUG when I needed Eternal Grove? I was stuck there for so long I realized why they called it Eternal, because you'll be there for all eternity looking for a group of pugs.

I have over 24 characters, why do I have so many? Because every single time I used to get to Thunderhead Keep it took forever to get through it and I'd start a new character. But alas, that new character would get to THK and the cycle would start all over again, sigh.

Those were the days...being stuck for weeks because PUGs either wouldn't take you, couldn't find a monk and decided to hench that part and if they did take you, inevitably they'd always argue about how best to beat the end of the mission and we'd die horribly, screaming and in pain. Anyone who knows that mission knows it takes FOREVER to even get to the end, and for it to all go to crap 9 times out of 10 is just annoying. I don't have that kind of time to waste, I have a life yunno...(not really).